1 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 3 SUMMIT COUNTY, OHIO 4 THERESA F. McGARVEY, ) ) 5 Plaintiff, ) ) 6 vs. ) ) 7 LAUREL LAKE NURSING HOME, et. al,) ) 8 Defendant. ) _________________________________) 9 10 11 12 DEPOSITION OF LONE THANNING 13 East Elmhurst, New York 14 Wednesday, September 27, 2000 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Reported by: DONNA PALMIERI 24 JOB NO. 113284 25 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 September 27, 2000 8 1:35 p.m. 9 10 11 12 Deposition of LONE THANNING, 13 held at the Courtyard Marriot, 14 90-01 Grand Central Parkway, East Elmhurst, 15 New York, pursuant to Agreement before 16 Donna Palmieri, a Notary Public of the State 17 of New York. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S: 3 LINTON & HIRSHMAN, ESQS. 4 Attorneys for Plaintiff 5 Hoyt Block, Suite 300 6 700 West Street, Clair Avenue 7 Cleveland, Ohio 4413-1230 8 BY: TOBIAS J. HIRSHMAN, ESQ. 9 10 11 CAL HURD, ESQ. 12 Co-Counsel for Plaintiff 13 3392 Ormond Road 14 Cleveland Heights, Ohio 44118 15 16 17 EARL & WARBURTON, ESQS. 18 Attorneys for Defendant 19 Laurel Lake 20 136 West Mound Street 21 Columbus, Ohio 43215 22 BY: GREER SCHAFFER, ESQ. 23 24 25 4 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S: (cont'd.) 3 LINDHORST & DREIDAME, LLP. 4 Attorneys for Chris Marquart 5 312 Walnut Street, Suite 2300 6 Cincinnati, Ohio 45202 7 BY: PAUL J. VOLLMAN, ESQ. 8 9 10 RAWLIN, GRAVENS & FRANEY, ESQS. 11 Attorneys for Akron General 12 1240 Standard Building 13 Cleveland, Ohio 44113 14 BY: JOHN CHRISTIE, ESQ. 15 (Via Telephone) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 2 L O N E T H A N N I N G, called as a witness, 3 having been duly sworn by a Notary Public, 4 was examined and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. HIRSHMAN: 7 Q. Please state your name for the record. 8 A. First name Lone, L-o-n-e, last name 9 Thanning, T-h-a-n-n-i-n-g. 10 30 Sherwood Gate, Oyster Bay Cove, 11 New York 11771-3810. 12 Q. I'm looking at a copy of a curriculum 13 vitae. 14 Is that your curriculum vitae? 15 A. Yes, Mr. Hirshman. It is. 16 MR. HIRSHMAN: Let's mark it Exhibit 1. 17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1, curriculum 18 vitae of Lone Thanning, marked for 19 identification, as of this date.) 20 Q. I'm looking at a copy of a curriculum 21 vitae that is dated April 1999. 22 Is that your previous curriculum vitae? 23 A. Yes, sir. It is. 24 MR. HIRSHMAN: Let's mark that as 25 Exhibit 2. 6 1 Thanning 2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, curriculum 3 vitae of Lone Thanning dated April 1999, 4 marked for identification, as of this date.) 5 MR. HIRSHMAN: I'm looking at a letter 6 dated September 14, 2000 from me to defense 7 counsel in this case, which we will mark as 8 Exhibit 3. 9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 3, curriculum 10 vitae of Lone Thanning dated September 14, 11 2000, marked for identification, as of this 12 date.) 13 Q. Take a moment and read it if you would. 14 Have you read it? 15 A. Now I have. 16 Q. Have you ever seen that letter before? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Have you ever discussed the contents of 19 that letter with any of the defense counsel? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Have you brought the materials that 22 were requested in that letter? 23 A. No, sir. 24 MR. SCHAFFER: To the extent that 25 that request may not comply with Civil Rule 7 1 Thanning 2 34, I object. 3 MR. VOLLMAN: I'll object on the same 4 grounds. 5 Before we go on. I think, for the 6 record, there was an actual mix up in this 7 deposition, and Dr. Thanning was anticipating 8 testifying in a different case. So that's 9 the reason why she didn't bring the 10 materials, Toby. 11 Q. You have no materials from this case 12 here with you? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. None? 15 MR. VOLLMAN: Correct. 16 Q. You had a file with you? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Which had some medical literature in 19 it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. As I happen to just walk by, I saw 22 something. 23 A. Right. 24 Q. It has nothing to do with this case? 25 A. That's correct. 8 1 Thanning 2 Q What case does that have to do with? 3 MR. VOLLMAN: I'll object. That's 4 clearly privileged, I think. 5 I can just assert to you, Toby, that it 6 was another case that Dr. Thanning was 7 testifying for us on our behalf or reviewing. 8 Apparently, she had a request for payment to 9 you under the letterhead of that particular 10 case. I guess I can give you the case name 11 -- it's Morse versus Phillips -- and you had 12 sent her a payment back under that. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. VOLLMAN: And she thought that was 15 the deposition that was going to go on today. 16 MR. HIRSHMAN: Morse versus Phillips? 17 MR. VOLLMAN: Right. 18 Q. I sent you a check for $3,000, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That's your fee for these depositions? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. And you thought it was for another 24 deposition? 25 A. Right. I billed you for another one, 9 1 Thanning 2 and I guess you didn't pick up on it. 3 MR. VOLLMAN: Do you have a copy of 4 that letter. If you can accept it, that's 5 the reason why none of the materials are with 6 her today. 7 THE WITNESS: (Handing). 8 Q. So you have no materials here. 9 How are we going to have a deposition? 10 Do you remember this case? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. VOLLMAN: We have a copy of a 13 report. 14 Q. That's all you have here is your 15 report? 16 A. Right. 17 MR. VOLLMAN: I assume you also have a 18 copy of the original pathologist's report; is 19 that correct? 20 MR. HIRSHMAN: Yes, I do. 21 MR. VOLLMAN: I think the deposition 22 would be useful with those two exhibits, but 23 that's your call based upon the 24 circumstances. 25 MR. HIRSHMAN: Let me see if I can make 10 1 Thanning 2 this trip worthwhile. I would like to 3 proceed and leave open the possibility, if 4 this turns out to be a totally useless 5 endeavor, to do this again. 6 MR. VOLLMAN: We have no objection. 7 MR. HIRSHMAN: Does anybody have an 8 objection to that? 9 MR. VOLLMAN: No objection. 10 MR. HIRSHMAN: Any objection from other 11 counsel? 12 MR. VOLLMAN: At this point, I won't 13 object. 14 Depending on how the deposition 15 goes -- 16 MR. SCHAFFER: I'll join in that. That 17 makes sense under the circumstances. 18 MR. CHRISTIE: I'll agree with the two 19 gentlemen. 20 Q. So you brought a file. It was from the 21 Phillips case, but you brought a letter from this 22 case? 23 A. No. 24 MR. VOLLMAN: The letter you just read. 25 Q. Was the original letter sent to 11 1 Thanning 2 defense counsel? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 MR. HIRSHMAN: All right. We'll do our 5 best. 6 Q. You've had a chance to look at the 7 letter that you wrote dated July 14, 2000? 8 A. Yes, sir? 9 Q. And you've had a chance to look at 10 nothing else as of this time? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Well, we have a copy of Dr. Shorten's 13 letter -- I should say pathology report. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You remember reviewing that? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. When did you last review it? 18 A. In conjunction with the slide review 19 and my verbal consultation of same with Mr. Lyon. 20 Q. When was that? 21 A. That was around the same time as the 22 report was issued, the middle of July of this 23 year. About a little over two months ago. 24 Q. I'm going to place a copy of 25 Dr. Shorten's report before you, and I'd like 12 1 Thanning 2 you to acknowledge for the court reporter that 3 you have a copy of Dr. Shorten's report from the 4 pathology specimens taken February 8, 1998. 5 A. February 9, I believe. 6 Q. I think the surgery was on February 8, 7 however. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you have it in front of you? 12 A. I do. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Please review it. 14 A. Certainly. 15 MR. VOLLMAN: Toby, has the letter of 16 July 14, 2000 been marked as an exhibit? 17 MR. HIRSHMAN: No. 18 Q. You've reviewed that? 19 A. Yes, sir. I have. 20 Q. I take it it's fair to say that the 21 opinions that you are going to render in this case 22 are those that are contained in your report? 23 A. That is correct. 24 MR. VOLLMAN: Let the record reflect 25 that the copy of the medical record has some 13 1 Thanning 2 markings on them. 3 MR. HIRSHMAN: They aren't my marks. I 4 don't know where they come from. That's the 5 copy that I got. 6 MR. VOLLMAN: Okay. I just wanted to 7 point that out. 8 MR. HIRSHMAN: All right. 9 Q. Have you looked at any literature in 10 regard to this case? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. None whatsoever? 13 A. None whatsoever. 14 Q. Do you have any pathology texts in your 15 library? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Which texts do you typically utilize in 18 the furtherance of your tasks as a pathologist? 19 A. I utilize a vast array of books, 20 medical journals and Internet research articles. 21 Q. Do you utilize Andersons? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you rely on that from time to time? 24 A. Bits and pieces of it, right. 25 Q. Boyds? 14 1 Thanning 2 A. It's not a text I frequently rely on. 3 Q. Which texts other than Andersons do you 4 utilize? 5 A. Numerous, sir, numerous. 6 Q. Give me a list of what you have in your 7 library. 8 A. I could not do that off the top of my 9 head, sir, as I sit here. I have a lot of books. 10 Q. You can't give me some of them? 11 A. I could give you some. 12 Q. Give me some. 13 A. As examples? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Besides Andersons that you brought up? 16 Q. Correct. 17 A. I utilize Robin's Pathology. I use 18 Ackerman's Pathology book edited by John Rosi 19 (phonetic). Those are classic textbooks. I use 20 numerous others. 21 Q. Any specifically related to the spleen 22 that you can think of? 23 A. Depends what issue in the spleen I 24 would be looking at, sir. 25 Q. Well, let's talk about issues regarding 15 1 Thanning 2 effects of systemic disease on the spleen? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are there certain texts that you would 5 utilize for that purpose? 6 A. It would be in a general ballpark of 7 non-neoplastic hemato-poietic disorders. 8 Q. And which texts would you find to be 9 helpful to you in dealing with those types of 10 issues? 11 A. Numerous, sir. I could not list them 12 off the top of my head. 13 Q. Just like we did before. I don't 14 really need a list. I just want to have your best 15 statement as to texts from that list that you 16 could recall. 17 A. But I can't, sir. I can't recall 18 authors and editions. 19 Q. You can't recall the names of any of 20 those books? 21 A. No, sir. I'm sorry. Not as I sit 22 here. 23 Q What's your experience with spleens? 24 Q. I've been, as you can see from my c.v., 25 I've been a physician for the past -- a little 16 1 Thanning 2 over 20 years, and I've practiced internal 3 medicine before practicing -- training rather and 4 educating myself as an anatomic pathologist and 5 later as a forensic pathologist. In the course of 6 all those years and training and experience, 7 postgraduate training and experience, I have 8 performed a few thousand autopsies, most of which 9 included a spleen examination, gross and 10 microscopic as well. I guess that answers your 11 question. 12 Q. Is most of the work that you've done 13 with spleens over the last -- how many years have 14 you been practicing now? 15 A As a pathologist? 16 Q. As a pathologist. 17 A. Since 1983. So it would be about 17 18 years, including my training periods. 19 Q. You last did internal medicine when? 20 A. From 1980 to '83. 21 Q. Was that as a resident? 22 A. As a resident, chief resident and 23 attending physician. 24 Q. Since 1983, you have been limited to 25 pathology? 17 1 Thanning 2 A. Right, and anatomic forensic pathology. 3 Q. So I take if from what I've gathered 4 from your c.v. that your experience has not been 5 with hospital pathology. 6 You are not a hospital pathologist? 7 A. That's correct, I'm not. 8 Q. As such, you are not a surgical 9 pathologist? 10 A. Well, I am a surgical pathologist by 11 education and by board certification, but I'm not 12 a practicing surgical pathologist because I went 13 onto subspecialize in the field of forensic 14 pathology and so ever since that time, which was 15 in 1986 to '87, I have been either employed or 16 self-employed in fields outside of surgical 17 pathology. 18 Q. So you don't typically see surgical 19 specimens of spleen. 20 What you most usually see when you see 21 spleen is the results of an autopsy investigation, 22 fair statement? 23 A. No, sir and that's my fault because I 24 didn't answer completely before. 25 When I said I have concentrated on 18 1 Thanning 2 practice outside of a surgical pathologist, I 3 meant a surgical pathologist in a hospital setting 4 or in a laboratory setting. I practice surgical 5 pathology as well as forensic pathology in a 6 private setting in my consulting business, and so 7 besides having examined all these spleens as part 8 of my autopsy examinations I also look at spleens 9 slides from -- in second opinion settings at 10 hospitals. I respond to hospitals and 11 laboratories and review existing slides and 12 existing official surgical pathology reports, and 13 I render opinions based upon those independent 14 reviews in surgical pathology cases. 15 Q. In other words, you're called to the 16 hospital by a hospital pathologist to give a 17 second opinion on how they should read out a 18 pathology specimen? 19 A. No, sir. I'm usually called upon by 20 either a family member, plaintiff or potential 21 plaintiff in a medical malpractice action or in a 22 personal injury action, or I'm called upon by an 23 attorney, either plaintiff's attorney or defense 24 attorney, to go and address specific issues that 25 have arisen, usually in a medicolegal setting, or 19 1 Thanning 2 I'm called upon by an insurance company or 3 New York City or a state agency or the like. 4 Again, for purposes of an independent opinion that 5 can later form the foundation for deposition, 6 physician's affidavits, affirmation, trial 7 testimony and so forth. 8 Q. So is it fair to say you've never been 9 employed as a hospital pathologist? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. Can you tell me when it is that you 12 last saw a spleen in a non-autopsy setting other 13 than this case? 14 A. A splenectomy specimen? 15 Q. Correct? 16 A. From a surgical removal, I don't recall 17 off the top of my head. 18 Q. It's been a number of years? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the 21 spleen and what it does, if we could. 22 A spleen is an organ and that is in the 23 abdomen, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It functions in a number of ways, one 20 1 Thanning 2 of which is to act as a filter, I believe? 3 A. Yes, it does. 4 Q. It acts as a filter for blood, am I 5 mistaken in that regard? 6 A. No, that's absolutely correct. 7 Q. So as materials and blood cells of 8 various types filter through the spleen, it's the 9 function of the spleen to remove those blood 10 cells, correct? 11 A. It's the function of the spleen to 12 remove bad cells and other residue, dying cells. 13 Q. For example, one of the things it does 14 is that it takes red blood cells that have become 15 injured and removes them, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Another thing that it does is that it 18 takes plasmacytes, which are -- what is a 19 plasmacyte? 20 A. That's an inflammatory type sell which 21 has the ability to produce antibodies, liquid 22 antibodies. 23 Q. What is a plasmacyte as it relates to 24 a -- well, it's a white blood cell of one sort or 25 another, correct? 21 1 Thanning 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And white blood cells go through a 4 maturation process? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Some are more acute type cells, some 7 are more long-acting cells of an older process? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where do plasmacytes fit into that 10 continuum? 11 A. Well, in your question there is an 12 inherent mix up of two different issues. I'll try 13 to clarify and address both issues. 14 A plasma cell is not only a white cell, 15 it's an inflammatory type cell, and yes, some 16 inflammatory cells are abundant in an acute 17 inflammatory reaction. Some are more abundant in 18 chronic inflammatory process. It's, among other 19 criteria, the percentage wise composition of 20 various inflammatory cells that allows us 21 pathologists and forensic pathologists to time an 22 injury or time a reaction. That is, to give an 23 opinion as to whether it happened very recently or 24 it's a longer process. So it's one issue about 25 this timing of cells. Plasma cells in that regard 22 1 Thanning 2 serve in the more chronic -- toward the more 3 chronic end of the spectrum as inflammatory 4 processes go. However, plasmacytes have a very -- 5 an acute or hyperacute function. That is, namely 6 they will gather in an area that is injured and 7 they will help the acute healing process by their 8 release of liquid antibodies. It's a very acute 9 and also hyperacute reaction. 10 Q. You would expect to find some amount of 11 plasmacytes in a spleen regardless of whether 12 there was an ongoing infection, would you not, and 13 the question becomes one of degree? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So a normal spleen will have 16 plasmacytes and a normal spleen will have 17 polymorpholeucocytes, correct? 18 A. Correct, polymorphonuclear leucocytes. 19 Q. Repeat. Excuse me. 20 A. Yes, it's a matter of how they are 21 distributed within the organ and in what numbers. 22 Q. So inherently there is an issue of 23 judgment that comes into question as to how one 24 makes those interpretations? 25 A. Absolutely. 23 1 Thanning 2 Q. When one uses the term "septic spleen," 3 is that a term you use frequently? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that the equivalent of acute 6 splenitis, or is that a different entity in the 7 way that you use it? 8 A. That is pretty much the same thing. 9 Q. What's the normal size of the spleen? 10 A. It depends on the size of the person, 11 like with most other organs. I could give you a 12 range. 13 A spleen would be anywhere from about 14 60 to 70 grams and up to about 140, 150 grams in a 15 normal setting. 16 Q. Septic spleen and acute splenitis are 17 usually associated with an enlarged spleen, are 18 they not? 19 A. That can very well be the case. 20 Q. Septic spleen and acute splenitis is 21 usually associated with a gross finding. In other 22 words, a finding to the eye rather than a 23 microscope of parenchyma being soft and 24 overflowing the capsule; am I correct in that 25 regard? 24 1 Thanning 2 A. Not entirely. The gross or the naked 3 eye appearance of a typical textbook example of 4 septic spleen would be on cut sections, sir. From 5 the surface you don't have an overflowing capsule, 6 but the cut surface as we bread loaf slice the 7 spleen on examination, cut surface will tend to 8 have a mushy, increased softened appearance. 9 However, the diagnosis of a septic spleen is not 10 made with the naked eye because there are many 11 other reasons for a soft, mushy cut surface of the 12 spleen and so it has to be done microscopically 13 for the definitive diagnosis. 14 Q. So you'd expect it to be soft and 15 mushy, but there are other reasons than septic 16 spleen for spleen to be soft and mushy? 17 A. Vice versa. You can have a septic 18 spleen microscopically that you did not recognize 19 with the naked eye to be, so ... 20 Q. Understood. Do you have any 21 independent basis other than what you read in 22 Dr. Shorten's report for knowing what the size and 23 weight of this spleen were? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Do you have any independent basis for 25 1 Thanning 2 knowing the nature and extent of the disruption 3 rupture and fracture of the spleen? 4 Q. Yes. 5 Q. And what is that? 6 A. The microscopic or so-called 7 histopathological changes which I have seen 8 personally by my review of the four microscopic 9 slides taken by Dr. Shorten. 10 Q. Tell me, if you would, what the extent 11 of that disruption was? 12 A. The extent of the disruption I cannot 13 give you in measurements. That would have had to 14 have come from the gross examination and report of 15 the splenectomy, not from more or less random 16 sections of the spleen. It tells you exactly how 17 large were the tears naturally. 18 Q. In other words, the sections that you 19 have you would describe as being more or less 20 random? 21 A. They have been designated by 22 Dr. Shorten as so-called "representative" samples 23 and so that is, you know, does translate to 24 a random but adequate pathologically properly 25 addressed representation. 26 1 Thanning 2 Q. Was there evidence of disruption in 3 each one of those slides? 4 And I note you are looking at your 5 report in order to answer that question. 6 A. Yes, just to refresh my recollection, 7 if I may. 8 Q. Certainly. 9 A. I did not make a note specifically of 10 which of the slides contained areas of disruption. 11 I did make a note that it was a focal 12 nature of the disruption. Meaning it was present 13 in some areas and not in others. 14 Q. Do you know which areas it was present 15 in, and which areas it was not present in? 16 A. I don't know how I would specify that 17 other than by marking the actual slides and 18 showing it to you. 19 Q. Which you aren't able to do because you 20 didn't bring pictures here today. 21 Let me ask you this: 22 When you talk about disruption, is that 23 by definition a discussion regarding the capsule 24 as opposed to the parenchyma of the organ? 25 A. No, it's -- it does involve the 27 1 Thanning 2 parenchyma of the organ. 3 When I say there's a disruption and 4 distortion and rupture of the architecture, it 5 means the pulp, you know, the tissue. 6 Q. What do you mean by "abundant fresh 7 hemorrhage"? 8 A. Plenty. 9 Q. And well distributed? 10 A. I don't know what you mean, sir, by 11 "well distributed." 12 Q. Was there hemorrhage throughout the 13 materials that you reviewed? 14 A. No, the hemorrhage would be around the 15 tears. 16 Q. There is also mention, I think, of an 17 attached blot clot -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- In Dr. Shorten's report? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Based on that and based on your 22 independent review, are you able to give any 23 opinions regarding the timing of this rupture? 24 A. No, I cannot give you an accurate 25 timing of this rupture based on just these four 28 1 Thanning 2 slides since I have no way of knowing if the 3 oldest most organized looking parts of the blood 4 clot had been submitted for microscopic studies by 5 Dr. Shorten and if he deliberately took care to 6 include both the most fresh recently looking and 7 the most organized parts of the clot. You would 8 really have to see that spectrum of changes in 9 order to be assured that you're truly looking at 10 representative samples with respect to the timing 11 issue. So that would have to be addressed in this 12 particular case at the time of the initial 13 examination just like -- 14 Q. If that was an issue of concern at the 15 time? 16 MR. VOLLMAN: Objection as to what 17 someone else might have thought was of 18 concern. 19 A. It's -- 20 MR. VOLLMAN: Over the objection, you 21 can answer. 22 A. It's not the job of a surgical 23 pathologist to address timing issue in the 24 standard surgical pathology workup. 25 Q That wouldn't be part of what a 29 1 Thanning 2 surgical pathologist would be trying to address? 3 A. That's correct, that's correct. 4 Q. So let's talk about the bleed and maybe 5 you were already talking about the bleed. 6 I asked you whether you could time the 7 rupture. 8 I'm now going to ask you whether you 9 could time the bleed. 10 MR. VOLLMAN: I'm sorry. In reference 11 to what? 12 MR. HIRSHMAN: When it occurred, when 13 it began. 14 Q. Are you able to do that based on the 15 materials you've reviewed? 16 A. No, sir. Same answer for the same 17 reasons. 18 Q. So that we're totally clear, and I 19 think you may have already answered this, the only 20 tears you've reviewed are four slides and 21 Dr. Shorten's letter? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Or report? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 MR. HIRSHMAN: Off the record. 30 1 Thanning 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 Q. Plasmacytosis occurs as a result of a 4 number of physiologic processes, does it not? 5 A. Yes, physiologic and pathologic 6 processes. 7 Q. In addition to infection, 8 immunosupression that would cause -- 9 A. That would be an example of 10 pathological process. 11 Q. -- that can cause plasmacytosis, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You indicate in your report, I think 15 you say "splenic arterials show moderate degrees 16 of hyalinization"? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You refer to pencilliary 19 arteriosclerosis. 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q Pencilliary arterials is the name of a 22 structure in the spleen, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. It's essentially a nonspecific finding, 25 isn't it? 31 1 Thanning 2 A. No. 3 Q. No? 4 A. It isn't. 5 Q. Of what significance is the finding of 6 splenic arterials showing moderate degrees of 7 hyalinization? 8 A. That is specifically a pathological 9 hallmark or manifestation of hypertension, 10 systemic arterial hypertension. 11 Q. Anything else? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Given the fact that you have not 14 brought any pictures for me to look at, you are 15 not in a position to show me the plasma cells and 16 how they're situated? 17 Q. Sir, I have not taken any pictures. 18 There are no pictures. 19 Q. You are not in a position to show me 20 the polymorphonuclear leucocytes and how they are 21 situated in the anatomy of the spleen? 22 A. Not unless I do take pictures and it 23 can be done. 24 MR. VOLLMAN: Were you under the 25 impression, Toby, that pictures were taken? 32 1 Thanning 2 MR. HIRSHMAN: I was under the 3 impression she might be taking pictures, and 4 what I asked in the letter if she were going 5 to take pictures, that they be done for this 6 deposition so that I would have an 7 opportunity to intelligently learn what it is 8 she's going to be testifying to at the time 9 of trial. 10 MR. VOLLMAN: Okay, that's the letter 11 dated -- 12 MR. HIRSHMAN: That's the letter we 13 marked as Exhibit 3 dated September 14, 2000. 14 Q. Do you know Dr. Zumwalt, 15 Dr. Ross Zumwalt? 16 A. Zumwalt, yes. I do not personally. 17 Q. How do you know him? 18 A. As a forensic pathologist. 19 Q. Why is it that you happen to know of 20 him? 21 A. I have -- I don't recall, sir. I know 22 of his name. 23 Q. He's a well recognized forensic 24 pathologist in this country, isn't he? 25 A. That's my understanding, yes. 33 1 Thanning 2 Q. He's president of one of the leading 3 pathology organizations, I believe, is he not? 4 A. Currently, I don't know. 5 Q. Do you know whether he was at one time? 6 A. Which organization? 7 Q. I'm not sure I can tell you that. 8 A. Okay, I wouldn't be surprised if that's 9 the case, but I don't know of that specifically. 10 Q. Do you know Dr. Jeffrey Mendelson? 11 A. Dr. Mendelson, yes, I've heard that 12 name. 13 Q. How do you know Dr. Mendelson? 14 MR. VOLLMAN: If you know, don't guess. 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 MR. HIRSHMAN: I'm never asking you to 17 guess. This isn't a guessing contest. 18 A. I'm not entirely sure, but I have a 19 clue because you're from Ohio. 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I think -- Well, again, I'm not quite 22 sure, but I know there's a very, very famous 23 forensic pathologist, or used to be, 24 Dr. Ottelson (phonetic) from -- 25 Q. Cuyahoga County. Adelson? 34 1 Thanning 2 A. Yes. He is or was one of the fathers 3 or considered one of the fathers of forensic 4 pathology in our country and Dr. Mendelson may 5 have been a student of his, may have been. I'm 6 not quite sure. 7 Q. Have you heard about their involvement 8 in this case? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you had any discussions regarding 11 Dr. Shorten and his opinions in this case? 12 A. No, no. 13 Q. None? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Could you see subcapsular hematoma in 16 those specimens you looked at? 17 A. Not in a very pronounced fashion. 18 Subcapsular hematoma is part of the 19 hemorrhaging process through the rupture. Once 20 the integrity of the capsule is interrupted, blood 21 will easily flow or freely flow through the 22 disruption and accumulate, as it did in this case, 23 on the surface of the spleen. Some of it will 24 clot up and some of it will ooze freely into the 25 peritoneal cavity and so, hence, a subcapsular 35 1 Thanning 2 hematoma is not very pronounced once the splenic 3 capsule is ruptured and likewise at that point in 4 time, of course, the whole overall size as well as 5 the weight of the specimen will be reduced by the 6 amount, however much liquid blood oozes out of the 7 spleen. 8 Q. So what I think I hear you saying is 9 that any subcapsular hematoma that may have 10 existed would have been allowed to free itself and 11 go into the peritoneum by the rupture of the 12 capsule? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. As a result, if there was bleeding in 15 the spleen accumulating and increasing its size 16 and weight by virtue of the rupture, it would have 17 escaped to the outside of the spleen? 18 A. Yes. For the most part, yes. 19 Q. Some of it would remain? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And presumably you saw some blood 22 subcapsularly? 23 A. Precisely. 24 Q. Did you see intraparenchymal hematoma, 25 or is the same discussion applicable to that? 36 1 Thanning 2 A. Applicable to that, yes, sir. 3 Q. So you saw blood intraparenchymally? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. You saw blood intraparenchymally that 6 was consistent with a situation where the rupture 7 had already occurred and, therefore, there was a 8 lot of blood outside of the spleen? 9 A. That's right, only little blood 10 remaining around the distorted edges. All I can 11 see now is collapsed distorted edges of the 12 splenic pulp with a little more blood accumulating 13 there than elsewhere in the spleen. That's where 14 you're literally looking at. 15 Q. So I assume it was your opinion at one 16 point there was a specific amount of blood in the 17 spleen that had accumulated? 18 A. I don't know how much. 19 Q. It may have been a significant amount? 20 It may have been a small amount, but 21 you just can't tell us, is that what you are 22 saying? 23 A. Right, I can't testify to what I 24 haven't seen. 25 Q. All right. So you don't know one way 37 1 Thanning 2 or the other? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. These polys -- I'm going to call these 5 polymorphonuclear leucocytes polys. I'm going to 6 call them polys. I guess other people do as well. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Because they're having the same problem 9 I have. 10 A. It's easier, yes. 11 Q. They can occur, as we said, with plasma 12 cells from a variety of pathological and 13 physiological processes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They can occur from shock? 16 A. Yes, but if they occur from shock they 17 are typically distributed inside small vessels, 18 that is intravescularly in the form of so-called 19 margination. 20 Q. In the spleen? 21 A. Or laking. In a variety of organs. 22 It happens too in an acute impending 23 heart attack. You can see the polys line up 24 inside the small vessel walls, the capillaries 25 particularly. 38 1 Thanning 2 Q. Inflammation also causes the formation 3 of polys? 4 A. Yes, but in true inflammation the polys 5 have now, through what we call diaphoresis, which 6 is the migration of the inflammatory vessels 7 through the vessel walls into the tissue itself. 8 That is where they exert their action in an 9 inflammatory process. So then, again, it depends 10 not only on the present or relative number of 11 inflammatory cells, but also exactly where they 12 are. 13 Q. Now, let's talk a little about your 14 fees, if we would. I don't do it with pleasure, 15 but I need to talk about this issue. 16 I'm being charged $3,000 for something 17 that is going to amount to about an hour and a 18 half of deposition; is that correct? 19 A. No, you're being charged, sir, my 20 usual minimal fee for a deposition which does 21 require my reserving the entire day for this 22 purpose, and I leave myself open to any timing 23 issues. Sometimes a deposition is just a few 24 hours. Sometimes it's 12 or 14 gruelling hours. 25 I never know what it's going to be, and so that's 39 1 Thanning 2 what the fee is for. It's for the day. It also 3 includes my transport time and expenses and so 4 forth in this case, and then you are being charged 5 $500 which is two hours for a review and 6 preparation with the attorneys for the deposition. 7 Q. So you're charging me for the time 8 you've spent with the defense attorneys for review 9 and preparation for this deposition? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Presumably, you had time to do that in 12 this case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And when did you do that? 15 A. I did that in the last several days 16 prior to today. 17 Q. And how is it then that you came to 18 this deposition with the wrong materials? 19 A. Because my -- because of the 20 misunderstanding, as you already know about. 21 Q. In other words, because the name of the 22 case that you billed me for was the Phillips' case 23 rather that the McGarvey case? 24 A. Yes, and no one made me aware of that 25 situation. 40 1 Thanning 2 Q. Assuming that we have to do this again, 3 are you going to charge me another $3,000 for the 4 next deposition? 5 A. I will have to charge you for the day 6 again, yes, sir. 7 Q. You will? 8 A. I'll have to. 9 Q. You work for yourself? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It's not like you have to because your 12 boss is telling you you have to, right? 13 A. Right, sir. 14 Q. How many cases have you worked on for 15 Mr. Lyon and his firm other than this one and the 16 Phillips' case? 17 A. Just those two. 18 Q. I've read somewhere 80 percent of your 19 work is essentially attorney-related work. 20 Is that a fair characterization? 21 A. Yes, yes, it would be. Most of it is 22 actually plaintiff's work. 23 Q. Some of it is plaintiff's and some of 24 it is defendant's, correct? 25 A. It's both, yes, but mostly plaintiff's, 41 1 Thanning 2 certainly within the state of New York. 3 Q. Are you presently licensed to practice 4 in a state? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What state is that? 7 A. I'm licensed to practice medicine in 8 the State of New York, the State of Florida, 9 inactive license, the Scandinavian countries, the 10 European economic community -- countries, 11 Greenland and the Feroe Islands. 12 Q. The only American license that you 13 actively have at the moment is New York? 14 A. New York, yes, sir. 15 Q. Did you ever practice in Florida? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How is it that you got a license in 18 Florida at one point? 19 A. I just applied for backup in case I 20 ever wanted to go live in a sunny state. 21 Q. Where did you apply first, New York or 22 Florida? 23 A. New York. 24 Q. And you received your license in New 25 York first? 42 1 Thanning 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When you worked at Onondaga County, how 4 many assistant medical examiners were there? 5 A. In Onondaga County I was the only 6 fulltime pathologist at a time when they had lost 7 three fulltime pathologists, and I was filling in 8 on a contract with some help from -- with some 9 part time help. 10 Q. It was a locum tenens position? 11 A. Basically, yes. 12 Q. Meaning you were there as a temporary 13 employee? 14 A. Yes, that's right, to help them fill 15 in until they found a new chief medical examiner. 16 Q. I notice that you didn't become board 17 certified in anatomic pathology until 1993, 18 although you were presumably done with your 19 training in 1987. 20 A. Yes, that is correct. 21 Q. Why did it take you until 1993 to 22 become board certified? 23 A. Well, I had applied for two board 24 certifications at the same time, and so I passed 25 one exam in '89 and I passed the other one in '93, 43 1 Thanning 2 and so I didn't get the actual diploma until I had 3 passed the second one in '93. 4 Q. Well, the two certifications you have 5 are anatomic pathology and forensic pathology? 6 A. I have four certifications, sir. I'm 7 also a board certified diplomate of the American 8 Board of Forensic Medicine and the American 9 College of Forensic Examiners. 10 Q. We'll talk about those in a minute, 11 but let's deal for the moment with the 12 certifications that you have in anatomic pathology 13 ad forensic pathology. 14 You finished your training, your 15 residency in 1987? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What did you do then in terms of board 18 certification examinations? 19 When did you first apply to become 20 board certified in anatomic pathology? 21 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think it was 22 in '87 that I applied for the both of them. 23 Q. Did you take a test in 1987? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you pass it on your first attempt? 44 1 Thanning 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you take the test again? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you pass it on your second attempt? 6 A. Well, I took two tests. Again, they're 7 two separate tests. 8 Q. Two tests for anatomic pathology? 9 A. No, one for anatomic pathology, which 10 I think is a day and a half and another one which 11 is a full day for forensic pathology, and I tried 12 to sit for them both at the same time in order to 13 save money because you have to travel all over the 14 country to do this. 15 Q. Is the forensic pathology test, is 16 certification in forensic pathology dependent on 17 first being certified in anatomic pathology? 18 A. You know, it's not in the sense that 19 you can pass the forensic pathology exam first, 20 but it is in the sense that I told you just before 21 that you can pass all the requirements for one, 22 but if apply for the two of them together you have 23 to wait until you pass the second one in order to 24 get your diploma as for both. 25 Q. Okay. I understood. 45 1 Thanning 2 So let's try to figure out when you 3 took the tests for anatomic pathology, and then 4 we'll do the same for forensic pathology. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. You took the test for anatomic 7 pathology for the first time in 1987, and you did 8 not pass it? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I'm correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You took it again when? 13 A. I don't remember the exact dates and 14 months and years. 15 Q. Did you pass it on the second attempt? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You took it a third time? 18 A. I had to take it as much as six times 19 because due to the fact that I have a severe 20 nearsighted disability. So I have extremely 21 strong contact lenses that were not at the time -- 22 for a period of five years or six years my eyes 23 were grossly under corrected. I have a letter to 24 that affect, and not until I finally found an eye 25 doctor who could properly correct my 46 1 Thanning 2 nearsightedness was I able to make diagnoses as it 3 requires at 50, 60 yards away in a test situation. 4 Q. How many times did you take the 5 forensic exam? 6 A. Twice, and then I passed it on the 7 third time. 8 Q. And the same reason that you are giving 9 me for having difficulty with anatomic pathology 10 you are saying caused you difficulty with forensic 11 pathology? 12 A. Yes, sir, it did. 13 Q. Have you ever had disciplinary action 14 taken against you by any state medical board? 15 A. Oh, no, sir. 16 Q. Any hospital? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Any certifying organizations? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. What is Medically Dedicated 21 Incorporated? 22 A. That's an organization which -- whose 23 purpose it is to match up attorneys, litigants and 24 expert witnesses. 25 Q. You have listed that on one of your 47 1 Thanning 2 curriculum vitaes as an organization that you -- 3 well, let me make sure I don't misquote your c.v. 4 here -- "current or former forensic pathologist 5 expert consultant for"? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then you listed among others 8 Medically Dedicated Incorporated. 9 So that is an expert referral service? 10 A. Precisely. 11 Q. Is that what we would describe that as? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. What is your roll with them? 14 You are one of the doctors they will 15 hook a lawyer up with; is that a fair statement? 16 A. Yes, if they have a case that they feel 17 would be suitable for my area of, I guess, 18 expertise and interest. 19 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Could we have 20 a very brief break to the ladies room? 21 MR. HIRSHMAN: Absolutely. I'd 22 appreciate though if it were brief because we 23 have very little time. 24 THE WITNESS: You got it, sir. 25 (Recess taken.) 48 1 Thanning 2 Q. If you show up for trial in this case, 3 what are your charges for that? 4 A. I'll be charging Mr. Lyon's office. 5 Q. I certainly hope so. 6 A. For that $3,500 is my daily rate, and 7 then there's travel issue and travel time. 8 Q. You've charged more than that in other 9 cases, haven't you? 10 A. No, that is my going rate for the day. 11 Q. Do you remember a Mr. Robinson? 12 Clay Robinson, does that ring a bell? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. He was about to try a case, and you 15 were going to appear? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. And he decided not to use you 18 apparently for one reason or another? 19 A. Well, he was settling the case, I 20 think. 21 Q. Maybe that's it. He was charged 22 $6,000 a day by you, wasn't he? 23 A. No, no, no, no. 24 Q. $6,000 for two days? 25 A. For two or three days. However many 49 1 Thanning 2 hours it was port to port including meetings with 3 him and so forth. 4 Q. So for that trial you didn't end up 5 testifying for you charged him what, $6,000; is 6 that your recollection? 7 A. No, I didn't. I didn't receive that 8 much. It was for less than that for two or three 9 days. 10 Q. Well, that's what you billed him for. 11 A. Well, yes, if I had to go, right and so 12 it was cancelled. In fact, the last minute when I 13 was on my way out the door with my suitcase packed 14 and all the arrangements made. So it was settled 15 for less. 16 Q. So you billed him for $6,000, and he 17 paid you less? 18 A. Yes. The insurance company did, yes. 19 In fact, he wanted to -- he didn't want to pay me 20 at all, but it was settled. 21 Q. If I were to ask Dr. Lukash about 22 you -- you worked for him in Nassau County, if I'm 23 not mistaken? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. What would he have to say about your 50 1 Thanning 2 job performance? 3 MR. SCHAFFER: Note my objection. 4 MR. VOLLMAN: I'll join in on that as 5 well. 6 Q. Go ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: So what do we do? 8 MR. VOLLMAN: If you know what he'd say 9 about you. 10 THE WITNESS: How can I testify as to 11 what someone else can say? 12 MR. HIRSHMAN: We can play that game, 13 or I can ask the question in a different way. 14 We'll do that. I'll ask the question in a 15 different way. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 Q. Why did you leave that job? 18 A. I left that job at first because I was 19 -- my position was terminated with no reason. I 20 started an investigation through the EEOC because 21 I had been sexually harassed and discriminated 22 against. I was the first woman in the job as 23 department Medical Examiner for Nassau County and 24 also the first woman in the fellowship training 25 program under Dr. Lukash's leadership, and I was 51 1 Thanning 2 also, incidentally, the first fellow to finish my 3 fellowship in only one year, but I also had to 4 bear the brunt of enormously taxing sexual attacks 5 in the way of harassment and discrimination. And 6 so, I raised this issue through the EEOC, and I 7 won the right to sue upon the conclusion of their 8 investigation. I took the case to federal court, 9 and I obtained a confidential settlement agreement 10 against Dr. Lukash at which point in time the 11 county rescinded my position and Dr. Lukash 12 issued, as he had done before, another stellar 13 letter or praising letter of recommendation. 14 Q. It's part of the agreement? 15 A. Which you'll be privy to. Dr. Lukash 16 is under a gag order. 17 Q. Under a gag order not to talk about 18 this case by you? 19 A. Yes. So to answer your question, what 20 he would say would be limited to a release of that 21 letter of recommendation, which is one of the 22 exhibits of the confidential federal lawsuit that 23 I won. 24 Q. That you settled? 25 A. That I settled, right. 52 1 Thanning 2 Q. You didn't win a right to sue. 3 You were conferred a right to sue by 4 virtue of the fact that the administrative process 5 terminated, correct? 6 You have an obligation to exhaust 7 administrative remedies before you sue? 8 A. Right, there's a six-month period with 9 the EEOC to give them an opportunity to do their 10 investigation, which I don't know what it 11 consisted of, but at the end of that six-month 12 period, I earned the right to sue in federal 13 court, which I did. I won a confidential 14 settlement that includes mutual gag orders. 15 Q. Let's talk a bit about the other board 16 certifications that we didn't talk about yet. 17 You call these board certifications -- 18 what is it that you refer to them as, your 19 involvement with the American College of Forensic 20 Examiners, that's the ACFE and the American Board 21 of Forensic Medicine, which is the ABFM, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. You consider those board 24 certifications? 25 A. No, no, no. 53 1 Thanning 2 Q. Those are not? 3 A. Those are national professional 4 forensic organizations. 5 Q. Those aren't certifications that 6 require you to go through the rigorous process you 7 had to go through in order to become board 8 certified as an anatomic pathologist, correct? 9 A. You are confusing the issues a little 10 bit, sir, I'm sorry to say. 11 The American College of Forensic 12 Examiners is a professional organization that 13 holds as one of its advisory boards the American 14 Board of Forensic Medicine. 15 One can become a member of the ACFE 16 and/or if you're a doctor, you can become a member 17 of the ABFM as well. If you qualify, you can 18 choose to sit for an examination and take a board 19 certification examination in either area, and 20 there are numerous others. I think there are nine 21 or ten other boards. There's a board for, you 22 know, dentistry. There's a board for engineering 23 and so forth. 24 Q. Handwriting analysis? 25 A. Yes, document analysis, handwriting. 54 1 Thanning 2 Everything that has to do pretty much with 3 forensic consultation, major groups of that have 4 their own advisory board. 5 Q. I'm looking at your c.v. I'm looking 6 at the one that's marked as Exhibit 1, which is 7 the current one, I believe, which is dated 8 November 1999. 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And on there you have down under 11 certificates, "Board Certified Diplomate Forensic 12 Medical Examiner." 13 That's from the American College of 14 Forensic Examiners, correct? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And underneath that you have "Board 17 Certified Diplomate"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Forensic medicine? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. That's a diplomate of the American 22 Board of Forensic Medicine, which is what the 23 DABFM stands for, right? 24 A. Correct, correct. 25 Q. Are you representing to us that those 55 1 Thanning 2 particular diplomate statuses are the equivalent 3 in terms of what they say about you as a 4 professional to board certification as an anatomic 5 pathologist? 6 A. No, they're not equivalent. They're 7 supplementary. 8 Q. Test process. Did you have to take any 9 tests to get your diplomate status for each of 10 those? 11 A. Yes, I took a test in, I think -- I 12 took one test, and I was grandfathered in the 13 other at that time. That's no longer available. 14 Q. So which test did you take to become a 15 forensic examiner? 16 A. I think that was the one, yes. 17 Q. So if I understand this -- I won't call 18 it a scheme. 19 If I understand this organization, 20 before you can become a diplomate of one of the 21 sub-boards, you must first become a member of the 22 American College of Forensic Examiners? 23 A. Yes, yes, and I think you have to be so 24 for a period of time, maybe three years. No, that 25 can't be. I'm not quite sure what the rules are, 56 1 Thanning 2 sir. I shouldn't say. 3 Q. So the American College of Forensic 4 Medical Examiners constitutes a college which has 5 all these various sub-boards including one for 6 medicine, one for dentistry? 7 A. Exactly. 8 Q. One for handwriting analysis, etc.? 9 A. Exactly, cross-disciplinary 10 organization. 11 Q. So you took a test to become a member 12 of this American College of Forensic Examiners? 13 A. No, no, no. A membership, a regular 14 membership is just as it is with any other 15 pathology or forensic society. That is, you 16 apply. There's an application form. You send in 17 your fee and you are then screened, and then 18 you're accepted or rejected. That's membership 19 just as it is with CAP, which is the College of 20 Forensic -- sorry. College of American 21 Pathologists of which I'm also a fellow with the 22 CFE. I'm a life fellow. 23 So membership is membership as it is 24 with the American Academy of Forensic Scientists 25 or the name the National Association of Medical 57 1 Thanning 2 Examiners, but the difference is -- just to 3 clarify this. The difference is that this 4 particular organization offers an outstanding 5 continuing education program and also offers board 6 certification to those who wish -- who choose to 7 take that challenge. 8 Q. So you didn't have to take a test to 9 become a member of the American College of 10 Forensic Examiners? 11 A. Like you don't have to take a test to 12 become a member of any other professional -- 13 Q. I just asked you a question. 14 The answer is "no"? 15 A. Okay, sorry. 16 Q. And you didn't have to take a test in 17 order to become a member of the American Board of 18 Medical Examiners either? 19 A. There is no such thing. 20 Q. ABFM? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. American Board of Forensic Medicine? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Did you have to take a test to become a 25 diplomate of that organization? 58 1 Thanning 2 A. I believe I was grandfathered or 3 grandmothered, if you wish, into that 4 certification, and as you can see, I was for three 5 consecutive years actually chairman of that 6 advisory board. 7 Q. Are you going to the conference that 8 they have in October in Nevada? 9 A. Las Vegas. Not this year, no, but I've 10 been to each and every conference and I have 11 lectured, I think, each and every year for the 12 past five years in a row. 13 MR. HIRSHMAN: I'll see if I can find 14 -- I had a copy of the schedule for that 15 conference, if I can find it. It's not here, 16 no matter. 17 Q. Would it surprise you to hear that on 18 October 26 they'll be discussing the subject of 19 the expert witness, "Practical Tips From Marketing 20 To Taming Attorneys," does that sound like a 21 subject that would occur at that type of seminar? 22 A. Sir, first of all, I will not be 23 attending the national convention this year, as I 24 said. 25 Second, I will not testify to certain 59 1 Thanning 2 characterizations of certain courses that I'm not 3 going to be teaching that I have nothing to do 4 with here today. I really don't think that's my 5 purpose here today. 6 Q. How well do you know Mr. O'Block? 7 A. Dr. O'Block. 8 Q. It's Dr. O'Block. 9 A. I know him pretty well. He's the 10 founder of the organization. 11 Q. Do you know Mr. Robert Phillips? 12 Does that ring a bell? 13 A. No. 14 Q. He was the chair of the Certification 15 Committee. 16 Do you remember the circumstance where 17 the chairman of the Certification Committee 18 resigned? 19 A. No. 20 Q. No recollection of that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you recall a time historically where 23 there were questions as to whether or not 24 Mr. O'Block was granting certification to people 25 that the Certification Committee did not wish to 60 1 Thanning 2 have certified and circumventing that committee? 3 Do you remember those issues arising? 4 A. I have never been a member of the 5 Certification Committee. 6 I have no knowledge of what you're 7 addressing here, and I have no opinion whatsoever, 8 no statements to make in that regard. 9 Q. How much does it cost to become a 10 diplomate of the American College of Forensic 11 Examiners? 12 A. I don' know. It costs whatever your 13 membership fee is, your annual dues and then on 14 top of that because you have to be a member in 15 good standing currently, and then it costs 16 whatever the tuition fee for the exam is and 17 perhaps your travel expenses like with any other 18 board. 19 Q. Touro International College is 20 something you are a member of or you are a faculty 21 member of? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Just so we understand. 24 There's no M.D. program that is part of 25 their curriculum, is there? 61 1 Thanning 2 A. It's not a medical school, sir. 3 Q. So what kind of a school is this? 4 A. It's a school of health sciences, 5 national and international. 6 Q. So you're teaching isn't teaching 7 doctors to become pathologists? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Or students to become doctors? 10 A. Correct, it's not a medical school. 11 It's a -- well. 12 MR. HIRSHMAN: I have to catch a plane. 13 I'm not done, but I've got a son who 14 turns 18 today, and I got to get home for his 15 birthday. 16 THE WITNESS: Congratulations. 17 MR. HIRSHMAN: Off the record. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MR. HIRSHMAN: I have a thick file here 20 that I need to get into. If I had the 21 opportunity to do so, I would probably spend 22 another two hours, an hour and a half to two 23 hours here and I'm not going to get into what 24 it was I would be discussing. 25 MR. SCHAFFER: I just want to note on 62 1 Thanning 2 the record you're under the time constraint, 3 and that's the reason why we're breaking it 4 off. 5 MR. HIRSHMAN: That's fair. 6 I'm under a time constraint because I 7 have an airplane to catch. 8 I'm under a time constraint because we 9 started this deposition late for a number of 10 reasons, one of which was that this telephone 11 wasn't working properly. 12 We had a further problem with further 13 conferring being done between the deponent 14 and counsel for Dr. Marquart. So we got a 15 late start. 16 I'm not casting aspersions. I'm not 17 trying to be any more hostile about this that 18 I need to, but I do have more questions to 19 ask and I want to pick up the issue of, 20 number one, when we're going to reschedule 21 this and whether I'm going to have to pay 22 this deponent another $3,000 23 to do so. So there we are. 24 MR. SCHAFFER: All right then. 25 MR. HIRSHMAN: All right. 63 1 Thanning 2 MR. SCHAFFER: Yes. 3 MR. HIRSHMAN: Thank you. 4 MR. VOLLMAN: We'll read. 5 (Time noted: 3:05 p.m.) 6 7 8 _________________________ 9 LONE THANNING 10 11 Subscribed and sworn to before me this______day 12 of___________, ______. 13 14 ____________________________________ 15 NOTARY PUBLIC 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T E 3 4 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 5 ) ss.: 6 COUNTY OF NASSAU ) 7 8 I, DONNA PALMIERI, a Notary Public 9 within and for the State of New York, do 10 hereby certify: 11 That LONE THANNING, the witness whose 12 deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was 13 duly sworn by me and that such deposition is 14 a true record of the testimony given by such 15 witness. 16 I further certify that I am not related 17 to any of the parties to this action by blood 18 or marriage; and that I am in no way 19 interested in the outcome of this matter. 20 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 21 my hand this 17th day of October, 2000. 22 23 _________________________ 24 DONNA PALMIERI 25 65 1 2 ------------------ I N D E X ------------------ 3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE 4 LONE THANNING MR. HIRSHMAN 6 5 6 ------------- INFORMATION REQUESTS -------------- 7 DIRECTIONS: None 8 RULINGS: None 9 TO BE FURNISHED: None 10 REQUESTS: None 11 MOTIONS: None 12 -------------------EXHIBITS ------------------- 13 PLAINTIFF'S FOR ID. 14 1 curriculum vitae dated 10/99 6 15 2 curriculum vitae dated 4/99 6 16 3 letter dated 9/14/00 7 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25